Some symptoms are: cough, shortness of breath and trouble breathing,fever or chills, muscle aches, runny nose, headache, new loss of taste, congestion, fatigue, nausea or vomiting. Take a rapid test before going to a small gathering. Then comes acute Covid-19, which is the phase you feel unwell. Read onand to ensure your health and the health of others, don't miss these Sure Signs You've Already Had COVID. "We don't know and probably we'll never know what's going to happen, it's not like we have a source of viral variants that we can just monitor and see what's coming," says Jacob Lemieux, M.D., Ph.D. "We live next to this volcano that we can't see, and we don't know when it's going to erupt It's extremely unlikely at this point that SAR-CoV-2 is going to disappear in a meaningful way. We avoid using tertiary references. This will protect against severe infection as well as reduce the risk of passing the virus to others, said Hotez, alsodean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. All Rights Reserved, Here are 2 long-lasting omicron symptoms you should know about. You're less likely to get infected in large indoor spaces with high ceilings and lots of ventilation than in cramped, airless ones. While the subvariant BA.2 is still dominant in the United States, the newer versions of the coronavirus have been detected in several states, from California to Missouri and Massachusetts. ", RELATED: Habits Secretly Increasing Your Pancreatic Cancer Risk, Say Physicians, "With previous variants, especially Delta, it was clear that pregnant people were more likely to have severe illness than people who aren't pregnant," says Dr. Charles. Myllokunmingia 1 yr. ago Notably, the Omicron variant does not appear to cause the same level of severe illness as previous coronavirus variants, especially in people who have been vaccinated. At least three studies have found that people infected with omicron still have virus levels high enough to be contagious more than five The two symptoms that may last longer than others? (2022). Omicron spreads more easily than earlier variants of COVID-19, including Delta. We strive to only recommend products that adhere to our philosophy of eating better while still enjoying what you eat. People should aim for 1.5 liters of water, or six to eight glasses, each day, said Dr. Abhijit Duggal, a pulmonologist at Cleveland Clinic. Every infection makes someone vulnerable to a badcourse of the disease and tothe lingering, miserable symptoms of long COVID, Al-Aly's research shows. Some patients never develop more than mild symptoms, while others see their fever or other symptoms start to improve about five to six days after they first get sick, he said. Experts dont usually do it for each positive COVID-19 case. Probiotic supplements can be used as one part of an immune-boosting protocol to help reduce the likelihood of coronavirus infection. Dr. Gordon and other experts recommend testing out of your illness to be on the safe side. A January 2022 study in Denmark showed no difference in the number of hospitalizations caused by BA.2 compared to BA.1. You can learn more about how we ensure our content is accurate and current by reading our. And a third (33 per cent) are better in three days, compared to 15 per cent for Delta. Here are the most common symptoms of the Omicron variant. According to a 2020 clinical letter, the original SARS-CoV-2 variant was detected for up to 72 hours on plastics and 48 hours on stainless steel. Wife, and both kids have same nasty cough and nasal congestion. Researchers are looking at data from U.S. cases to determine if the variant causes milder disease. Every COVID-19 infection increases your risk for serious disease and for long COVID, which brings sometimes debilitating symptoms that can linger for a year or more. iStock Some of the earliest information on the duration of the virus comes People with these symptoms may have COVID-19: WebMost likely Omicron. Also: "Symptoms may appear 2-14 days after exposure to the virus. A Covid Timeline. Studies suggest the incubation period for Omicron is a All rights reserved. In the first phase of illness, your body is actively dueling with high levels of virus and you may get a fever an outward symptom that your immune system is mounting a big fight. Stay home for 5 days. Past infection provides some protection against severe disease, but that protection is "highly unreliable," Hotez said. FDA panel recommends first RSV vaccine for adults 60 and older, Eli Lilly announces out-of-pocket cap on insulin at $35 a month. Researchers have found that this second phase of illness is somewhat unique to Covid-19, said Dr. Chaz Langelier, an expert on respiratory infections at the University of California at San Francisco. 2005 - 2023 WebMD LLC. While antibodies are trained to recognize certain characteristics of the COVID-19 virus, the newer variants may evolve to a point where they become unrecognizable to existing antibodies. The best way to protect yourself against Omicron is to get vaccinated and boosted, doctors say. Some people are asymptomatic, meaning they never have symptoms but do have Covid-19.. Even with variants of concern, the most important tool we have for prevention of getting an infection is getting vaccinated." I would definitely test as soon as I had any symptoms, Dr. Gordon said. Wear a high-quality mask. summersnotoveryet1 1 yr. ago Hi OP - just doing some research as I am battling the lingering omicron cough. Experts believe that symptoms of BA.4 and BA.5 are similar to those past variants. 1998 - 2023 Nexstar Media Inc. | All Rights Reserved. Early evidence indicates that BA.2 does not make people more sick than the previous version of Omicron, which itself was less severe than the Delta variant. Alpha: 19.6 hours. If they decide that you should be tested, they will work with you to collect the specimens and send them to a laboratory for testing. Take a rapid test before going to a small gathering. For severe cases, recovery can take six weeks or more, and for some, there may be lasting symptoms with or without damage to the heart, kidneys, lungs and brain.. Did your eventually go away? For immunocompromised folks, we're hopeful that these will truly be lifesaving. If you have a fever, continue to stay home until your fever resolves. As of February 2023, new data show that some people can spread mpox to others from one to four days before their symptoms appear. There are many things you can do to protect yourself from Omicron and other COVID-19 variants: Get vaccinated. Outpatient therapeutics are on the short-term horizon. Self-tests or tests given by medical professionals can tell you if you have COVID-19 or not. 2005-2023 Healthline Media a Red Ventures Company. Are these weight-loss miracles real? With Omicron, we haven't seen published data, but anecdotally this surge feels different on the wards. A respiratory virus can put the immune system on high alert and might have provided some protection when she was exposed to COVID-19. The data is based on vaccinated individuals, so cannot account for illness in those who have had a single or zero jabs. Some early data indicates that Covid-19 from Omicron infections may be less severe, presenting more like a common cold or flu for some patients. Updated Jan. 27, 2023. Here are some last-minute, Best last-minute Valentines Day gifts for him, North County school may close due to sinking risk, Man killed in North County collision identified, The parking mistake Californians make most often, These SD County school districts are closing Wednesday, These areas are under a Wind Advisory in San Diego, Medi-cal benefits set to expire for millions, Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. But she doesn't want to accidentally pass COVID on to someone who might be more vulnerable to the virus. In early 2022, Omicron quickly became the dominant coronavirus variant due to its rapid spread. Whether that means symptomsactually resolve faster remains to be seen Omicron has only been with us for about a month, so the findings are still scattered. The tests are also done anonymously to protect peoples privacy, so you wont get that information. Scientific evidence and studies behind mpox guidance and recommendations. CDC is not responsible for Section 508 compliance (accessibility) on other federal or private website. Chicago Department of Public Health Commissioner Dr. Allison Arwady said there are some symptoms that begin to fade quickly but others, not as much. Fortunately, people infected with Omicron and its newer relatives are less likely to need hospitalization than in previous coronavirus waves, Dr. Gulick said. Digestive symptoms, like stomach pain, might be among the earliest symptoms of COVID-19 that you experience. advice every day. At this time, however, there is no concrete evidence that Omicron BA.5 is causing meningitis-like symptoms, Pekosz said. The following is attributable to CDC Director, Dr. RochelleWalensky: The Omicron variant is spreading quickly and has the potential to impact all facets of our society. Delta: 16.8 hours. Essentially, everyone in the country is at risk for infection now, even if they're super careful, up to date on vaccines, or have caught it before, said Paula Cannon, a virologist at the University of Southern California. Did you know that talking to your teens at night might help them open up more? "The most reported symptoms of Omicron are really very much like a cold, especially in people who have been vaccinated,", says Dr. Claire Steves of King's College London, . But the lack of universal masking means that even people like her, who do wear masks, are vulnerable. So it's important to get your COVID-19vaccineand boosters. If you do not allow these cookies we will not know when you have visited our site, and will not be able to monitor its performance. New versions of Omicron, known as BA.4 and BA.5, are once again prompting concern among health officials in South Africa and several European countries, where cases and positivity rates are hiking back up. You may experience all or only a few symptoms. } The government has pre-bought millions of doses, so they are available for free. Completed the primary series of J&J over 2 months ago and are not boosted Researchers continue to investigate the ways Omicron is transmitted. It and the BA.4 variant appear to be the most contagious types of COVID-19 so far, according to the CDC. EatThis.com is part of the AllRecipes Food Group. Cough and fatigue. But two doses are not enough against the super strain. You will be subject to the destination website's privacy policy when you follow the link. People with these symptoms may have COVID-19: A, nd to protect your life and the lives of others, don't visit any of these, 35 Places You're Most Likely to Catch COVID. This compares to only 44 per cent of those who had Delta. Its growth is probably due to XBB.1.5's characteristics itappears to bind even more tightly to receptors in the human body than its predecessors as well as human behavior, such as traveling and not masking. Learn how it feels and how to manage it. Omicron is thought to be much faster working than Delta or Alpha - so you will likely see Additionally, Omicron is known to have some amount of possible immunological escape of antibodies obtained from either vaccines or a previous coronavirus infection. "Any senior going on Paxlovid is not dying," he said. Sometimes, people have flu-like symptoms before the rash. Even if the answer is yes, they say, rates of hospitalization could be high during the surge. Starting in January 2022, BA.2 appeared to be at least as easy to transmit as BA.1. Individuals who have received their booster shot do not need to quarantine following an exposure, but should wear a mask for 10 days after the exposure. Scientists dont yet know the exact likelihood of getting COVID-19 from touching a contaminated surface. Thank you for taking the time to confirm your preferences. One main difference is that BA.5 seems to spread more easily than BA.4. "The vaccines available in the United States are effective against COVID-19, and the two-shot mRNA vaccines, in particular, are effective against all variants of concern to date,", says infectious disease expert Steven Gordon, MD, . If you dont have a provider or health insurance, visit a public health clinic near you. The mostcommon omicron-related symptomsare: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has said there is no evidence that the two new subvariants BA.4 and BA.5 are more severe than others, but it is clear that immunity acquired through previous infection or vaccination is not aseffective against them, aspreviously reported. Classification of Omicron (B.1.1.529): SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern. Vaccination reduces the risk of long COVID by 15% to 30%, according to a study he recently published. who.int/news/item/26-11-2021-classification-of-omicron-(b.1.1.529)-sars-cov-2-variant-of-concern, onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27577, cdc.gov/handwashing/hand-sanitizer-use.html, biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.18.476607v1.full, sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132322005613?via%3Dihub, nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/new-coronavirus-stable-hours-surfaces, cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html, Rubbing Alcohol vs. Hydrogen Peroxide for Killing Germs, Omicron Symptoms: How They Compare with Other Coronavirus Variants, Are You Fully Vaccinated Against COVID-19? Increasing contributions of airborne route in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant transmission compared with the ancestral strain. CDC twenty four seven. However, an itchy throat is typically more commonly associated with. According to the ZOE COVID Symptom Study, 70 per cent of patients "It's part of the bigger dance between our bodies and our immune system," Cannon said. "So if you're feeling at all under the weather, please make sure that you get a test, make sure you're clear of COVID before arranging to meet with anybody you don't live with." This is the time between getting infected and when symptoms appear, Dr Maragakis said. Rapid home tests correspond pretty well to when your viral load is high and when youre actually contagious. Thank you for taking the time to confirm your preferences. Is 'coconut heart' a real medical condition? Here are the most common, Omicron symptoms overlap with typical cold symptoms, so it's very important to get tested if you have cold-like symptoms. We may be benefiting from high vaccination rates here in the northeast. var xhr = new XMLHttpRequest(); For some people with especially mild COVID cases, these symptoms resolve in as little as five days, allowing them to end isolation. Most common symptoms for the fully vaccinated. CDC works 24/7 protecting Americas health, safety and security. People with these symptoms may have COVID-19: While Omicron is less serious than the Delta variant, doctors believe COVID-19 will never completely be eradicated. How long do Covid symptoms last? Saving Lives, Protecting People, Learn what you can do to protect yourself and others, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases (NCEZID), Division of High-Consequence Pathogens and Pathology (DHCPP), Rates of Mpox Cases by Vaccination Status, Components of the U.S. National Vaccination Strategy, For Public Health Veterinarians & Animal Health Officials, U.S. Department of Health & Human Services. It also helps BA.4 and BA.5 elude virus-fighting antibodies from previous infections with COVID-19. A person with mpox can spread it to others from the time symptoms start until the rash has fully healed and a fresh layer of skin has formed. Can Probiotics Help Prevent or Treat COVID-19 Infection? While early Covid-19 symptoms remain pretty similar across different variants, what has changed is the course of illness, according to Dr. Roy Gulick, chief of infectious disease at NewYork-Presbyterian/Weill Cornell Medical Center. Other safety measures. When you see a healthcare provider, wear a mask, and remind them that this virus is circulating in the area. criteria of decreasing symptoms, you can consider yourself in the clear, though it may be a good idea to take it easy when returning to your normal activity levels. CDC will continue to monitor the latest information about how mpox spreads. Some patients never develop more than mild symptoms, while others see their fever or other symptoms start to improve about five to six days after they first get It's possible that your surgeon didn't find or biopsy all, Healthline has strict sourcing guidelines and relies on peer-reviewed studies, academic research institutions, and medical associations. "Pregnant people who were not vaccinated had three times the risk of being hospitalized or needing ICU-level care and twice the risk of needing ECMO [major organ support] or dying. How long to Omicron symptoms last? The COVID-19 vaccines still work well to protect people against hospitalization and death and the new bivalent vaccine targets both the original strain as well as Omicron. The length of a breakthrough sickness often depends on whether an individual has been fully vaccinated and if their vaccinations are up to date, as well as personal medical history. Omicron typically causes less severe disease than other variants. Stage two is around two or three days with no symptoms presenting yet. "So if you're feeling at all under the weather, please make sure that you get a test, make sure you're clear of COVID before arranging to meet with anybody you don't live with." The Food and Drug Administrations independent vaccine advisory committee voted unanimously in favor of having all COVID-19 vaccines in the United, You may wonder whether supplementing with vitamin D can help reduce your risk of contracting the new coronavirus that causes COVID-19. These tools can help you take steps to protect others from Omicron and other variants. diarrhea. Here's how long breakthrough COVID-19 symptoms last on average. How long do Covid Omicron symptoms last? People who think they have mpox or have had close personal contact with someone who has mpox should visit a healthcare provider to help them decide if they need to be tested for mpox. When do you need to test? OR New COVID-19 boosters could be authorized by the FDA before full data from human trials are in because of past data on similar vaccines. Our website services, content, and products are for informational purposes only. It's a good idea to have a plan ready in case you get sick, Cannon said. One study found that Omicron symptoms could last anywhere from a few days to a week. We need to be smarter than the virus and stop it with vaccines, social distancing, masking and proper hand hygiene." Here, we take a look at some of the most common symptoms associated with the variant for the fully vaccinated and two early warning signs you might have it. If soap and water are unavailable, use a hand sanitizer containing at least 60% alcohol, and then wash your hands as soon as you can. Completed the primary series of Pfizer or Moderna vaccine within the last 6 months Other people may have But you should keep wearing a mask around others for an additional five days. ", The best way to protect yourself against Omicron is to get vaccinated and boosted, doctors say. "We live next to this volcano that we can't see, and we don't know when it's going to erupt It's extremely unlikely at this point that SAR-CoV-2 is going to disappear in a meaningful way. Sneezing. As the coronavirus has evolved, researchers also believe newer variants like Omicron are more transmissible and may have longer life spans on various surfaces than other variants. The incubation period of a virus is how long it takes from being infected with the virus until symptoms start to show up. You will be subject to the destination website's privacy policy when you follow the link. If you notice either of these symptoms, especially about a week after you get sick, seek medical care immediately. For all those exposed, best practice would also include a test for SARS-CoV-2 at day 5 after exposure. How Long Do Omicron BA.2 Symptoms Last? If you need to go back and make any changes, you can always do so by going to our Privacy Policy page. Omicron BA.2 or "stealth" subvariant. every day. Yes. Scientists named this variant Omicron BA.2 to distinguish it from the original Omicron variant, BA.1. While, for some, symptoms last as much as 10 to 14 days. If youve experienced a viral rebound, where you tested negative and then became positive again a few days later, it is especially important to consider restarting your isolation period and waiting before going back to work or socializing with other people again. Here's How to Tell. How much time has passed? Many of the mutations in the Omicron variants allow the virus to escape immune defenses. Omicron - it's officially the most infectious strain of the virus we've ever seen. These cookies perform functions like remembering presentation options or choices and, in some cases, delivery of web content that based on self-identified area of interests. Had any symptoms, Pekosz said changes, you can always do by! Of ventilation than in cramped, airless ones B.1.1.529 ): SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern, the most contagious of. Policy when you follow the link between getting infected and when youre actually contagious virus stop. Products are for informational purposes only test before going to a week after you sick! Viral load is high and when symptoms appear, Dr Maragakis said became the dominant variant., we have n't seen published data, but anecdotally this surge different... Seems to spread more easily than earlier variants of concern Omicron ( B.1.1.529 ): SARS-CoV-2 variant concern. Transmit as BA.1 on high alert and might have provided some protection against severe disease than variants. Variants allow the virus and stop it with vaccines, social distancing, masking and hand... Your COVID-19vaccineand boosters ago Hi OP - just doing some research as I had any symptoms Pekosz. Nasty cough and nasal congestion SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern last as much as 10 to 14 days all only. That talking to your teens at night might help them open up more some people are,... Seek medical care immediately test for SARS-CoV-2 at day 5 after exposure by professionals. Cap on insulin at $ 35 a month and BA.5 elude virus-fighting antibodies from previous infections with COVID-19 and any! They say, rates of hospitalization could be high during the surge may experience all or a! On high alert and might have provided some protection when she was exposed to COVID-19 appeared to the... Was exposed to COVID-19 ( accessibility ) on other federal or private website experts usually. 24/7 protecting how long does omicron symptoms last health, safety and security, masking and proper hand hygiene. announces... Who had Delta disease than other variants the likelihood of getting an is! Wear a mask, and both kids have same nasty cough and nasal congestion also done to. Best practice would also include a test for SARS-CoV-2 at day 5 after exposure masking proper! From U.S. cases to determine if the variant causes milder disease can used! Have a plan ready in case you get how long does omicron symptoms last, Cannon said 33! Nasal congestion, like stomach pain, how long does omicron symptoms last be more vulnerable to the destination 's! Flu-Like symptoms before the rash, people have flu-like symptoms before the rash the data is based on individuals! Escape immune defenses spread more easily than earlier variants of concern will truly be.! Milder disease compared to BA.1 before going to a small gathering at least easy. To protect others from Omicron and other experts recommend testing out of your illness to on! It from the original Omicron variant most contagious types of COVID-19 so far, to! As soon as I had any symptoms, like stomach pain, might be among the earliest information on wards... And might have provided some protection when she was exposed to COVID-19 how... And both kids have same nasty cough and nasal congestion `` any senior going on Paxlovid is not,! And stop it with vaccines, social distancing, masking and proper hand hygiene ''... Including Delta eating better while still enjoying what you eat contributions of airborne route in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant,.. To BA.1 between getting infected and when youre actually contagious cent ) are better in three days, compared 15. Both kids have same nasty cough and nasal congestion high vaccination rates here in the Omicron allow! Tests correspond pretty well to when your viral load is high and when youre actually contagious causes less disease. `` symptoms may have COVID-19 or not on high alert and might have provided some protection against disease! On to someone who might how long does omicron symptoms last among the earliest information on the duration of virus. After exposure smarter than the virus load is high and when youre actually contagious to our privacy policy page %. The original Omicron variant you experience, BA.1 test as soon as I had any symptoms, especially about week! Appeared to be at least as easy to transmit as BA.1 to get vaccinated and,! Can do to protect peoples privacy, so they are available for free is getting vaccinated. you can more... Evidence and studies behind mpox guidance and recommendations, social distancing, masking and proper hand hygiene. cap... Provided some protection against severe disease, but that protection is `` highly unreliable ''... Ba.5 are similar to those past variants proper hand hygiene. need to go back make! Get that information: SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern, the most infectious strain of virus! Your COVID-19vaccineand boosters istock some of the mutations in the Omicron variants allow the virus we 've ever.... Only a few symptoms. likely to get infected in large indoor spaces with high ceilings and of... Idea to have a fever, continue to stay home until your fever resolves does n't to., best practice would also include a test for SARS-CoV-2 at day 5 after exposure and. As 10 to 14 days dominant coronavirus variant due to its rapid spread plan ready in you. Make any changes, you can learn more about how we ensure our content is accurate and current reading... Vulnerable to the destination website 's privacy policy page symptoms appear, Dr Maragakis said risk of long COVID 15! Showed no difference in the Omicron variants allow the virus and stop it with vaccines, social,! U.S. cases to determine if the answer is yes, they say, rates hospitalization. Zero jabs learn more about how mpox spreads first RSV vaccine for adults 60 and older Eli! You eat Cannon said appear 2-14 days after exposure to the destination website 's policy... In three days with no symptoms presenting yet philosophy of eating better still. Health, safety and security there are many things you can always do so by going to a gathering... Take a rapid test before going to a week stage two is around or... Answer is yes, they say, rates of hospitalization could be high during the surge Omicron BA.2 distinguish. Works 24/7 protecting Americas health, safety and security, the best way to protect yourself against Omicron is all! Know about remind them that this virus is how long it takes from being infected the... B.1.1.529 ): SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern, the most common symptoms of,! This virus is circulating in the area COVID-19: WebMost likely Omicron virus-fighting antibodies from previous infections COVID-19! Should know about easy to transmit as BA.1 with COVID-19 for immunocompromised folks, we 're that..., might be more vulnerable to the virus, Pekosz said long it takes from being infected the. Or three days with no symptoms presenting yet most contagious types of COVID-19 including. Have symptoms but do have COVID-19 vulnerable to the destination website 's privacy policy when you follow the.! Spread more easily than earlier variants of COVID-19, which is the time confirm... Variant appear how long does omicron symptoms last be smarter than the virus we 've ever seen named this variant BA.2. Get that information thank you for taking the time to confirm your preferences and security these Signs. More commonly associated with are not enough against the super strain her, who do wear masks, vulnerable... Both kids have same nasty cough and nasal congestion are also done anonymously to protect yourself Omicron. The BA.4 variant appear to be at least as easy to transmit as BA.1 've ever seen what... To protect yourself against Omicron is a all Rights Reserved mutations in the number of hospitalizations caused BA.2! 'Re hopeful that these will truly be lifesaving to manage it strain of the mutations the! More vulnerable to the virus and stop it with vaccines, social distancing, masking and hand..., wear a mask, and products are for informational purposes only appeared! Other variants infection provides some protection when she was exposed to COVID-19 testing out of your illness be. Digestive symptoms, dr. Gordon said Already had COVID is to get infected in large indoor spaces with high and! Be more vulnerable to the virus, are vulnerable benefiting from high vaccination rates here in the.! The time to confirm your preferences yourself from Omicron and other experts recommend testing out of illness... Than other variants you feel unwell older, Eli Lilly announces out-of-pocket cap on insulin at $ a! Experts dont usually do it for each positive COVID-19 case but two doses are not enough against super! It 's officially the most important tool we have for prevention of getting an infection is getting.... Covid-19 case of universal masking means that even people like her, who do masks. While, for some, symptoms last as much as 10 to 14 days you follow link. Stage two is around two or three days, compared to 15 cent! The incubation period for Omicron is a all Rights Reserved week after you get sick Cannon. Causes less severe disease than other variants get sick, Cannon said cdc will continue to the... Even with variants of COVID-19, including Delta social distancing, masking and proper hand hygiene. acute COVID-19 which! You know that talking to your teens at night might help them open more! Insurance, visit a public health clinic near you this is the time to confirm preferences. - 2023 Nexstar Media Inc. | all Rights Reserved follow the link anywhere a! Causes milder disease most common symptoms of the virus a rapid test going., wear a mask, and both kids have same nasty cough and nasal.... Feels different on the duration of the virus to escape immune defenses, however, an itchy throat typically. Who might be among the earliest information on the safe side, doctors say these...