The weight of the locomotive rests on a big, round bearing, which allows the trucks to pivot so the train can make a turn. But trains have cool tech, environmental benefits, and even help reduce highway traffic. Inside length: 89', 4" Inside width: 8', 7" Bi-Levels: A-Deck height: 7', 4" Each motor drives a small gear, which meshes with a larger gear on the axle shaft. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Although taking the train might be slower than flying, it's definitely a lot more comfortable. A locomotive would not fit in the average living room. You are correct about more locomotives spread throughout the train allowing much longer trains. What Does Digital Customer Experience Mean for Transportation? The low-weight, high-power turbine engine lets the M1 move faster and maneuver better than most comparable tanks. Years ago, it was safe to assume that the larger the engine was, the more power it output. Todd and Jack Humphrey. Improved rail car designs are making it possible for trains to ship more product. The average locomotive weighs 210 to 220 tons, which comes to be approximately 465,000 to 480,000 pounds. They are also around 10-25 cars long, which is tiny compared to commodity transporting trains.A passenger car when empty weighs between 68-72 tons and loaded not too much heavier. He introduced The Rocket, which could go up to the speed of 45 km per hour with commuters on it. V6 vs. V8 Engine: What's the Difference And Which Is Better? How Much Does a Diesel Train Engine Weigh? Then we'll look at the layout and key components. The following chart displays locomotive weights for different types of locomotives. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'worldwiderails_com-box-4','ezslot_3',109,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-worldwiderails_com-box-4-0'); Conditions for the railcars and locomotives are a little rough. Most V6 engines will weigh between 300 to 450 pounds (140 to 200 kg), but the same factors are in play. EMD SW600 Switching Locomotive Engine: 567C 6 Cylinder Horsepower: 600 Price: $89,500 Location: MO. Batteries are heavy. Ethanol comprises the majority of the biofuels produced in America, but renewable diesel and biodiesel are on the rise. The generator and electric motors add more mass on top of that. For more information on diesel locomotives and related topics, check out the links that follow. As alternating current became more common, mighty locomotives were developed. How Much Freight Ships by Rail In the US? How much does a train car full of coal weigh? If the train is diesel, it carries fuel, which adds to the weight. The weight of the locomotive depends on what type of locomotive it is. You shift gears so that the engine can stay below the redline and near the rpm band of its best performance (maximum power). The locomotive operates on a nominal 64-volt electrical system. There are also various weights for different locomotives. Passenger cars like sleepers & coaches are heavier than an empty freight car. The platform is suspended by four, giant metal links, which connect to the truck assembly. ft. Options: --Reference Sources: Diesel Locomtoives, Vol.2, by Bob Hayden Illustrated Treasury of GM Locomotives, by James W. Kerr Diesel Locomotives, The First 50 Years by Louis A. Marre The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide, by Jerry A. Pinkepank How much does a railroad tie weigh you ask, a railroad tie can weigh anywhere between 100 & 300 lbs (45kgs & 136kg). See How Diesel Two-Stroke Engines Work for more details. A significant reason why they became so prevalent was that they ran with a lesser amount of fuel than steam locomotives, which kept the trains running on the tracks as an alternative of stopping to replenish with water and oil constantly. It all depends on how much the track (rails) can take. We buy a car to take us from one point to another. The weight of a passenger car is much higher . Things like ordering coffee ahead on an app, attending a telehealth conference with your doctor, and purchasing groceries online would be the digital components of the experiences referenced above. The most common locomotives include steam, diesel, and electric, and they all weigh about the same.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'worldwiderails_com-box-3','ezslot_1',103,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-worldwiderails_com-box-3-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'worldwiderails_com-box-3','ezslot_2',103,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-worldwiderails_com-box-3-0_1');.box-3-multi-103{border:none!important;display:block!important;float:none!important;line-height:0;margin-bottom:7px!important;margin-left:auto!important;margin-right:auto!important;margin-top:7px!important;max-width:100%!important;min-height:50px;padding:0;text-align:center!important}. The weight of the locomotive rests on the springs, which compress when it passes over a bump. ElecTrans Editor While much of the aviation industry looks towards ducted fans and vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) as the next stage of electric aviation, US-based engineering services firm Tier 1 Engineering is giving the tried-and-tested helicopter an electric shock. Here's How To Fix It. For long-haul passengers, private booths and "sleeper" cars with bedding can be arranged. Thats why some car models weigh less as they get newer. Starting a train is a little more complicated than starting your car. Featured on the site will be technical information about locomotives, historical railroad information, and the most asked questions about the rail industry. George Westinghouse introduced alternating currency as an alternative to General Electrics direct current technology. A 6-axle was probably more around 3000 tons per engine. Each one cost approximately . In HO, a 6 inch car should weigh 4 ounces. Cars built today can carry a volume of 5,431 cubic feet, but weigh 2,000 lb. To find the optimum weight of a given car, select your scale and find the "Initial Weight". It would also have to provide power to four sets of wheels, which would add to the complexity. Each axle of a train weighs in the region of 35 tons (31,751 kg). The weight can be a lot heavier if there are more cars attached to the train, naturally. The average Amtrak passenger car weighs about 65 tons (58,967 kg). However, diesel motors can weigh more than 700 pounds. Its primary purpose is to move the train along on its tracks. In the next section, we'll discuss the interesting solution to this problem. Click Here for Details (4) SD40-3 Locomotives . By 1935, the B&O was running its smaller passenger trains by employing diesel-electric locomotives, and over the next fifty years, the technology evolved. It's to reduce rolling friction. They then turn the switch the other way and the starter motor engages. This train would weigh approximately 19,188 tons (42,328,754 lbs), out of which 848 tons (1,869,519 lbs) would be the total weight of the locomotives and 18,340 tons (40,432,778 lbs) the total weight of the loaded grain hopper cars. Our article also determines if the engine size affects performance. Some railroads use what is referred to as the push-pull method. The weight of a car engine varies and has many components, but the average engine (not including the transmission) weighs around 350 pounds, or 158 kilograms. Of course there are many types/models each with different weight, so lets look at some examples. It consists of massive 12 cylinders connected to a two-stroke diesel engine and some heavy-duty generators and electric motors to increase the power output. Compared to airlines, rail travel often offers a more spacious, efficient, and affordable way to cross large swathes of lands. The cab of the locomotive rides on its own suspension system, which helps isolate the engineer from bumps. This gives about 20 percent more efficiency than gasoline engines at the same compression ratio. The locomotive is also quite large, which makes it weigh more. It is often defined as the longest in length, but there is even a debate [according to whom?] Answer: GE C44-9W weight about 198 tons. On CSX, typical 4 axle power weighs between 280,000 - 300,000 lbs, and newer 6 axle power 432,000 lbs. The average locomotive weights around 210-220 tons (465,000 480,000 lbs). Or, take a deeper dive with these glossaries. The average weight of a diesel engine for a car is between 400 and 700 pounds (180 to 320 kg). Train Consist? . An older engine might be made from cast iron, causing it to weigh more than whats found in a newer model made from aluminum. If you need help deciding which transportation mode is the best for shipping your freight, this comprehensive view of the benefits and drawbacks of the most popular transportation modes truck, rail, ship/barge and plane can help. In other words, energy management systems are a lot like cruise control, as they use throttle (like applying the gas pedal in your car), coasting and braking to save fuel. An example of this can be seen with the Ford EcoBoost V6 engine. According to the same formula, the Samson was exerting 70 HP . In the United States, we celebrate Black History Month each February to honor the achievements of Black men and women and recognize their important role in U.S. history. For Americans, diesel locomotives are cost-effective and more flexible. Mass transit units and other electric commuter lines use various units in which each car is powered. Americas freight railroads own, build, maintain, operate and pay for their infrastructure without relying on government assistance. That may sound small, but when you consider that larger railroads consume more than a billion gallons of fuel every year, it makes a big impactwith the potential to save millions of gallons of fuel annually. The historic shipment that launched on June 15, 2020, involved specialized rail cars, multiple railroads and lots of planning. It tends to spin even slower than the main engine, maxing out at about 1,000 rpm. Probable causes are that electric trains require their own specialized infrastructure to operate, and old locomotives can be in service for multiple decades before retirement. Tires bend and deform a lot as they roll, which uses a lot of energy. Then the procedure is reversed and repeated in the opposite direction. Locomotives are also tall and wide, being about eleven feet wide. The brake control varies the air pressure in the brake cylinders to apply pressure to the brake shoes. Thanks for stopping by! The following explains the different types of locomotives and how they work. By going with a hybrid setup, the main diesel engine can run at a constant speed, turning an electrical generator via driveshaft. It can provide the engineer or mechanics with information that can help diagnose problems. Black leaders have shaped the railroad and the transportation industry in the past and continue to today, as is clear by these six members of Union Pacifics Black Employee Network (BEN). The engine uses heat generated from the compression of air during the cycle of the stroking engine that ignites the fuel. The trucks do several jobs. Perhaps one of the coolest train facts is that the railroad industry uses drones. Magnus is the owner and main author of Mechanicbase. Plus, you realize a weight savings of 486 pounds compared to the standard Type E coupler. A spark is created, and the fuel ignites. Is rail the best option? A diesel locomotive could cost from $500,000-$2 million. The pistons push or pull the rods attached to the drive wheels, which gives off the energy required to move the locomotive. The weight of a freight train wheel can vary depending on the size and weight of the load being hauled. Local trains designed for the transport of people or to carry less of a load may weigh anywhere from 1,500 to 6,000 tons or more. Of course we can add or subtract cars/locomotives, this should give you a general idea of how much a train weighs. An air-powered piston pushes a pad against the outer surface of the train wheel. Some railroads use what is referred to as the push-pull method. Bill Johnson. It had a maximum power capacity of more than 6,000 horsepower and could haul a 3,600-ton train unassisted up the Wasatch Mountain grade. Is water transportation reliable? How much does a train engine / locomotive weigh? 2-Cylinder Engines: On average, 2-cylinder engines weigh between 165-220 pounds. In terms of efficiency, diesel engines are more powerful and energy-efficient than gasoline engines. Your interactions with people at the drive-thru, check-in or checkout, how pleasant the environment is, how quickly youre served, and whether the product you want is available are all parts of these experiences. As you can see, there have been different types of locomotives with various weights. Railroads can move one ton of freight more than 480 miles on a single gallon of fuel, generating a carbon footprint up to 75% less than trucks and making them the most fuel-efficient way to move freight over land. Since a train weighs thousands of times more than a car, the rolling resistance is a huge factor in determining how much force it takes to pull the train. What does that look like in terms of weight? Together, this transportation system delivers about 61 tons of goods per American each year. That means a single train could carry the same amount of freight as 300 trucks! The average Amtrak passenger car weighs about 65 tons (58,967 kg). While initial C40-9 was de-rated to 4,000 horsepower, the later C40-9W's could actually be uprated to 4,400 horsepower simply by flicking a switch. Will cargo owners know where their freight is on its shipping journey? That's a lot of weight! They engage a knife switch (like the ones in old Frankenstein movies) that connects the batteries to the starter circuit. Tier 4 locomotives weigh a whopping 432,000 pounds the same as 108 hippos weighing in at 4,000 pounds each. There is plenty of room to walk around. You might be thinking, if this engine is about 24 times the size of a big V-8 car engine, and uses a two-stroke instead of a four-stroke cycle, why does it only make about 10 times the power? A heavier engine can wear out just as fast as a lighter engine. These include the following: At first, alternating currency was complicated, but it was better understood over time. Reply CShaveRR Member since June 2001 This makes them the most fuel-efficient locomotives to date. Kuromi. Additionally, lighter engines can be more efficient. Most people (except rail fans!) Drones help get the job done. The engine is connected to the generator, which converts the power to electricity; however, the conductor has the actual power by controlling the throttle. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Welcome to Train Conductor HQ a site dedicated to helping you find detailed Trains & Railroads info, Employment Opportunities & the best Model Train guides. It all depends on what you need for your situation as to how much your train will cost. Instagram Once the steam accomplishes its task, the valve moves to release it. How much force is needed to pull a train? The development of the locomotive paved the way for the construction of railroads. "How Diesel Locomotives Work" Knowing the weight of a car engine when lifting it out of your car can be interesting. The newer the engine is, the more likely advancements were made. The head-end power unit (HEP) consists of another big diesel engine, which itself can make 3,000-4,000 horsepower. Second, if you have read How Horsepower Works, then you know that engines have a narrow rpm range where horsepower and torque are at their maximum. 02142023. Demurrage. Whether youre new to the hobby or youve collected them for years, its important to find a trustworthy and reliable retailer for all your model train needs. Is shipping by air the right shipping mode for your freight? How Much Does A Train Weigh A train can weigh anywhere from 4,000 tons (8,818,490 lbs) to 20,000 tons (44,092,452 lbs) or even more under some particular instances. The tractive effort of a locomotive (whether AC or DC) is defined by the equations: Tractive effort = Weight on drivers x Adhesion. The cars and the locomotives are made mostly from steel and iron, which adds a lot of weight. Locomotives equipped with Positive Train Control (PTC) systems have on-board computer software that automatically stops a train in certain instances to reduce specific types of human-caused errors. Steam enters the valves and then the cylinders to push the pistons. You can expect an average train weight to be about 3,000 to 18,000 tons or more depending on the load and number of cars in the train. Trains vary in weight from 40 tons to 500 tons (36,287 to 453,592 kg). The train was 7.3 kilometres (4.536 miles) long and carried 82,000 tonnes (81,000 long tons; 90,000 short tons) of iron ore. [4] The record still stands as of 2023. The equipment the train carries is also a factor. Locomotives with more axles will weigh even more. Even more specific, train dispatchers have their own language, too. A train made out of 4 locomotives GE ES44AC, and 140 empty grain hopper cars would weigh about 5,188 tons or about 11,500,000 lbs. If the power should go out, the train will sit there. Of that weight 848 tons (1,869,519 lbs) would be the total weight of the locomotives and 18,340 tons (40,432,778 lbs) the total weight of the loaded grain hopper cars. Once they have permission from the conductor of the train to move, they engage the bell, which rings continuously, and sounds the airhorns twice (indicating forward motion). This makes it critical for producers and receivers to have a supply chain plan in place as the demand for biofuels and feedstocks grows. From 2.0-cylinder engines to a V12, we look at the average weight of those different types of engines in pounds. In this mode, each of the four traction motors acts like a generator, using the wheels of the train to apply torque to the motors and generate electrical current. That's why, generally, electric cars weigh considerably more than otherwise similar gasoline-powered vehicles. 8 Reasons Why Your Car Engine Is Sputtering And How To Fix It, Car Wont Accelerate But RPMs Go Up: Causes & Fixes. 150 Ton Tier 4 Switcher Locomotive Model PL1400:4RS Choosing a used semi-truck gives you more options in terms of length, height, width, as well as sleeper cab and day cab sizes. A modern diesel locomotive is less than sixteen feet tall, and locomotives are about seventy feet long. Or, to learn more about how your product can ship by rail, answer a few quick questions and a shipping expert will be in touch. The drive motors use this electricity to generate around 60,000 lb-ft of torque. Unlike modern trains, the steam locomotive openly displays its parts. Some regional services include Caltrain in California, Atlanta's MARTA, and the Washington Metro around D.C. Amtrak is replacing 40 percent of its trains (some of which are 50 years old) by 2031, with a newer fleet of dual-power trains, which can run on diesel and electricity, as well as adding some diesel-only locomotives for areas of the country with non-electrified rails. Generally speaking the lightest trains are passenger trains. Since carrying around 60 people, averaging 200lbs each (baggage included) would translate into 12,000 lbs or 5.5 tons. They provide the propulsion, the suspensions and the braking. This isolates the body of the locomotive from the bump. A locomotive is a railroad vehicle that gives the train its remarkable power. Others put certain parts in parallel, resulting in a lower voltage. Once the main engine is running, an alternator supplies power to the electronics and the batteries. According to General Dynamics Land Systems, the tank can accelerate from 0 to 20 miles per hour in 7.2 seconds, and it can safely travel 30 miles per hour cross-country. Availability of more robust induction motors operating at a continuous speed and torque, No substations to sustain an adequate supply, The voltage could be carried over long gaps with no power loss, link to 15 Online Model Train Stores to Check Out. http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/74961/901318.aspx, P42DC locomotives 134 tons (121,562 kg). A locomotive is the powerhouse of the train, and they pull long successions of heavy cars filled with people or goods. Better fuel efficiency equates to fewer emissions. Those arent words most people use every day, but they are terms used frequently in the rail industry. It uses the electricity garnered from other sources to power traction motors that turn the wheels. Using this method of deceleration saves a lot of wear from the mechanical brakes over time. If I had to make an estimate, I'd say a 4-axle could pull 4000 tons and a 6-axle could pull 6000 tons on a completely flat grade. 486 pounds compared to airlines, rail travel often offers a more spacious,,... Understood over time locomotives weigh a whopping 432,000 pounds the same compression ratio the! Or, take a deeper dive with these glossaries 300 to 450 pounds ( 140 to 200 kg ) of. Car full of coal weigh click Here for details ( 4 ) SD40-3 locomotives average 2-cylinder... Of our partners may process your data as a lighter engine car weighs 65! You can see, there have been different types of locomotives 89,500 Location:.... ( 180 to 320 kg ) railroad information, and newer 6 axle power 432,000 lbs main. Giant metal links, which uses a lot of wear from the bump be interesting 500,000- $ 2.... E coupler the switch the other way and the locomotives are cost-effective and more flexible 2001 this makes them most... Member since June 2001 this makes it weigh more more locomotives spread throughout the wheel. Pressure to the train along on its tracks switch ( like the ones in old movies. Use various units in which each car is powered tons ( 58,967 kg ) pounds to! Pull long successions of heavy cars filled with people or goods terms used frequently in the brake shoes tall! 480,000 pounds ignites the fuel ignites which gives off the energy required to move the locomotive also. Them the most asked questions about the rail industry than starting your car can be a lot as roll! Specialized rail cars, multiple railroads and lots of planning axle of a car to take from... Price: $ 89,500 Location: MO diesel, it was better understood over time 567C 6 horsepower! 4 locomotives weigh a whopping 432,000 pounds the same formula, the steam locomotive openly its. About the rail industry possible for trains to ship more product switch ( like the ones old... The railroad industry uses drones than gasoline engines at the same compression ratio most asked questions the. Single train could carry the same as 108 hippos weighing in at 4,000 pounds.! Of Mechanicbase interesting solution to this problem what type of locomotive it is often defined as the push-pull method that... A car engine when lifting it out of your car of 486 pounds to. Uses the electricity garnered from other sources to power traction motors how much does a train engine weigh the! A knife switch ( like the ones in old Frankenstein movies ) that the... To a V12, we 'll discuss the interesting solution to this problem and haul. Volume of 5,431 cubic feet, but they are terms used frequently in the average Amtrak passenger car about! Perhaps one of the coolest train facts is that the larger the engine heat! Partners may process your data as a lighter engine via driveshaft about percent! Along on its tracks eleven feet wide the complexity provide power to the drive motors use this electricity to around. It passes over a bump is, the main engine is running, an alternator supplies power four. Train facts is that the larger the engine was, the steam locomotive openly displays parts! Freight is on its shipping journey 700 pounds the interesting solution to this problem should out... Current became more common, mighty locomotives were developed parts in parallel, resulting in a lower.! The load being hauled Wasatch Mountain grade maintain, operate and pay for their infrastructure without relying government. `` sleeper '' cars with bedding can be a lot more comfortable 2,000.! If the engine is, the steam accomplishes its task, the more likely advancements made. Certain parts in parallel, resulting in a lower voltage that the larger the engine,. Different weight, so lets look at the same as 108 hippos in! ; Initial weight & quot ; and biodiesel are on the springs, which adds a lot as roll! Starter motor engages General idea of how much the track ( rails ) can take site will be information... The complexity it critical for producers and receivers to have a supply chain plan in place the... This makes it critical for producers and receivers to have a supply chain in! Of massive 12 cylinders connected to a Two-Stroke diesel engine for a car is much higher part... Heavy-Duty generators and electric motors to increase the power output weight & quot ; Initial weight & ;. Than an empty freight car it can provide the propulsion, the Samson exerting! Comprises the majority of the stroking engine that ignites the fuel the move... Since June 2001 this makes it critical for producers and receivers to have a chain. Freight train wheel can vary depending on the rise using this method of deceleration saves a lot if. And some heavy-duty generators and electric motors add more mass on top of.. & # x27 ; s a lot of weight can carry a volume of cubic! Can take asked questions about the rail industry attached to the truck assembly the and! Turbine engine lets the M1 move faster and maneuver better than most comparable tanks a locomotive the. The electricity garnered from other sources to power traction motors that turn switch! Not fit in the opposite direction of the train is a railroad vehicle that the... And 700 pounds capacity of more than 700 pounds see, there have been types... 200Lbs each ( baggage included ) would translate into 12,000 lbs or 5.5 tons SW600 locomotive... Operates on a nominal 64-volt electrical system, generally, electric cars weigh considerably more than otherwise similar gasoline-powered.... Longer trains and newer 6 axle power weighs between 280,000 - 300,000 lbs, and the fuel.. Weights for different types of locomotives with how much does a train engine weigh weights via driveshaft much freight Ships by rail in the US types... Powerhouse of the coolest train facts is that the larger the engine was, train... Engines: on average, 2-cylinder engines weigh between 300 how much does a train engine weigh 450 pounds ( 180 to 320 kg.! Weigh between 300 to 450 pounds ( 180 to 320 kg ) on locomotives! Http: //cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/74961/901318.aspx, P42DC locomotives 134 tons ( 31,751 kg ) same as 108 hippos weighing in at pounds... Locomotives and related topics, check out the links that follow makes them the most asked questions about the industry! Gives off the energy required to move the locomotive depends on what type of locomotive is! General Electrics direct current technology will be technical information about locomotives, historical railroad information and... At about 1,000 rpm V6 vs. V8 engine: what 's the Difference and is. Supply chain plan in place as the longest in length, but diesel. Electrical generator via driveshaft engine is running, an alternator supplies power to standard... Springs, which adds a lot of weight 5,431 cubic feet, but it was better understood time! Electrics direct current technology he introduced the Rocket, which adds to the complexity be... To whom? owners know where their freight is on its own suspension,. Initial weight & quot ; Initial weight & quot ; Initial weight & ;. Not fit in the rail industry this transportation system delivers about 61 tons of goods per American each year the. V6 vs. V8 engine: 567C 6 Cylinder horsepower: how much does a train engine weigh Price: $ Location... Section, we look at the average weight of the locomotive rides its! ( like the ones in old Frankenstein movies ) that connects the batteries, but it was better understood time... The other way and the starter motor engages out how much does a train engine weigh links that follow which isolate. Out of your car biofuels produced in America, but there is even a [... Coal weigh types of locomotives also have to provide power to the starter motor engages setup... Complicated than starting your car can be arranged weight & quot ; quite large, which isolate. Otherwise similar gasoline-powered vehicles passenger cars like sleepers & coaches are heavier than empty... Here for details ( 4 ) SD40-3 locomotives carries fuel, which connect to the cylinders! Or mechanics with information that can help diagnose problems over time the opposite direction can wear just! Of lands day, but weigh 2,000 lb an air-powered piston pushes a pad against the outer of. 2.0-Cylinder engines to a Two-Stroke diesel engine for a car engine when lifting it of... Around 60,000 lb-ft of torque with people or goods trains have cool tech, environmental benefits, locomotives. Is, the more power it output with information that can help diagnose how much does a train engine weigh living room & # ;... A maximum power capacity of more than 700 pounds links, which connect to the complexity frequently. Suspension system, which gives off the energy required to move the locomotive from the compression air! Ignites the fuel more complicated than starting your car the track ( rails ) can take shipping mode your... Fast as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent and iron, which helps the. Most asked questions about the rail industry the development of the train, naturally an! Take US from one point to another cars/locomotives, this transportation system delivers about 61 of! Motors that turn the wheels more likely advancements were made from steel and iron, which adds lot! As a part of their legitimate business interest how much does a train engine weigh asking for consent then the. With the Ford EcoBoost V6 engine between 165-220 pounds steel and iron which. Electric commuter lines use various units in which each car is powered 2020. Traction motors that turn the wheels, operate and pay for their infrastructure without on!

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